DrillsAndSkills.com

gymdad08 · Joined: 04 Sep 2008 Posts: 5

Hello All,

I have been lurking here for quite some time and have seen some great advice among coaches. I was hoping for a coaches, or any other, perspective for a concerned parent.

My little monkey joined pre-team when she was 7, moved to team soon after and began to compete level 4 when she just turned 8. She has competed one full season and collected a couple of state titles, beam and floor, collected a few AA titles, and won about 60+ medals, all in her first season. She was passionate, determined, hard working and everything else you would probably want from a gymnast. She has myriad level 5 and 6 skills, BWO on beam, back/front tuck on floor, RBHBT on floor, etc.

Here is the tough part, all of her level 4 team mates have since moved on and are now competing level 5. Additionally, she has had two waves of pre-team girls that have joined team and have since passed her by. She is still, begrudgingly competing level 4. Why you ask? That DAMN Kip! She has been working on it for two years now and it does not seem to be any closer than when she started. She is now frustrated, her team mates are beginning to make fun of her, and she just competed her first meet of the season, again as a L4, but without her team mates this time. She was visibly depressed and did not want to stay and watch them compete L5.

We are in a small, but extremely competitive gym where all of the girls typically score 37-38+ AA. She cannot move up and her coaches have told her that if she does not progress then she will be re evaluated (kicked off of the team) by the end of the year.

I have done everything that I can do to support her. Hired a nutritionist, private coaching, woodward camp, and a lot of encouragement. Coming from a sports background I have tried to talk with her about the power of the mind but it does not seem to get through. She has done thousands of kip drills and it just seems to me that she is banging her head against a wall. Her coaches now all but ignore her out of disgust, same way they do with the girls that cannot fully do splits during stretching.

This is one of those things that I know I have to let her work out for herself but I would hate to see her passion for gymnastics end at level 4 because of one stupid skill.

What is a father to do?

Coach Blair · Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1492 Location: Bay area/Sacto

First thing to eliminate is to make sure she is strong enough. How strong are her pull up numbers and dip numbers ( they may not be doing dips with the girls though ). Can she climb up the rope without her feet?

Another place to look at is how strong she is in her abs. Rather can she do hanging leg lifts with ease? What's even more important is if she can hold her toes to the bar from a hang with her head for over 10 seconds.

Barring this, maybe the drills are just not clicking. I've seen a lot of compulsories suffer from learning the kip from L4 to L5. Even at L5 they would struggle with it over years. Ensuring strength helped. Part of that of course is diet influenced of course. It can be hard to make sure girls are eating enough, especially getting enough protein. And this can be ridiculously difficult to convince parents that their proteins THEY provide them are insufficient.

TipGuy · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:23 am Post subject:

The kip is the nemesis of many young (and not so young) gymnasts. It is a highly technical skill that requires substantial strength to complete. It takes most people a while to learn a kip, and some a very long time. Without seeing your daughter's kip there's no way I could diagnose or make suggestions as to what to work on. Strength will always help. Kip is about timing, positions and strength.
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AussieGirl · Joined: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 207

Is there any way you could post a video of your daughters kip. The problem may be easier to diagnose that way.

Your gym does not sound like a very positive environment if they are prepared to throw a girl who is obviously a wonderful gymnast off the team over one skill, even if it is a skill as important as the kip. It sounds like they care more about winning than they do about the kids. Ignoring kids for not being able to do things is a very immature and damaging way to coach. I would be looking for a new gym.

dizzy di · Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 66 Location: Uk

KIPS UGH THE DEVIL I BELEIVE!!! i DONT kNOW A coach or a gymnast who actually likes these things.

I am a coach and spend hours and hours on these moves, i have children who have come into the gym and performed them in 3 months and others who take 3 years!, no one is ever the same, the most sole distroying move for coach and gymnsat i beleive.

We play game in my gym, you do not say how old your daugher is, my 2001 birthdays can kip,(float) and we play the game `up at any cost`, they start by pulling to a hanging chin up and then fight like mad to get up. This has worked for years in the gym and stops them feeling disheartened, we do bar routines with this extreme strength move in, and very slowly they start to kip. first with bent arms andthen straight,
they do not ever feel inadequate or left out this way.
Try it , buy a door bar, most stores sell them .

I agree coaches should be supportive,, it is hard as coaches have to work to the level gymnasts are at, i expect the coach is very upset for your daughter no coach i know would want her to feel this way, sometimes we do try the tough approach to see if this wil spur them on, but only if we believe the child could do it,
It seems such a shame if she is so wanting to do gymnastics, sometimes the gymnast who takes teh longest to acheive a skill is often the one who does it the best, just keep supporting her, Very Happy

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Coach Blair · Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1492 Location: Bay area/Sacto

Actually I had a conversation with another coach last year that it would be much easier to teach kips if we just waited till they had the strength to do a muscle-up first and cleaned it up. Getting the girls enough abdominal strength and the motion is rarely the problem besides a few inefficiencies in the technique of the glide swing and kip.

I started incorporating these for the girls in the past few years while teaching the kip and it helped of course for the girls who were strong already. They got their kips very fast while working this skill as part of their conditioning.

I also did with them a spotted russian kip. From a beat swing, straight arm pull and push to support with the spotter.

I never got any of the girls to do a muscle-up, but training these for the girls in level 3/4 or did help them get it. We did play with muscle ups for the older or more seasoned compulsories but I can't remember any making it besides a struggle-up ( one arm at a time muscle-up ).

gymdad08 · Joined: 04 Sep 2008 Posts: 5

gymdad08 · Joined: 04 Sep 2008 Posts: 5

Coach Blair · Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1492 Location: Bay area/Sacto

Hey GymDad. I guess I could find out which gym she's from but USAG Member website is down and I'm not waiting for it to back up. I can't think of many gyms in LA however. I'm not familiar enough with them since I know the gyms in Norcal much better.

I did take the time to go through all your footage of her, the one you posted and last year's footage.

Maybe she just had an off day on bars. She wasn't as strong as I'd like most L4 to be. Nice FX basics and shapes as well as on BB. A little funny run but all L4's seem to be that way.

It's hard to say if she's still the same compared to last year. Still, first thing to mind is she is simply not strong enough in her upper body and core. I'm thinking these based on her struggle with the pullover and her support ( casting height, ability to hold a nice candlestick/hollow position ).

Without knowing what her condition program is and the quality it's impossible to comment on.

I don't think she is overweight at all just understrong. Quite a bit of difference. More pullups, more dips, more leg lifts and v-ups. Set up a bar at home and encourage it somehow. Either challenge her yourself or make it fun game or something.

I would be very incensed if someone told my child they need to lose 5-10 pounds. This is just a breeding ground for negativity and I hope they don't tell this to their kids. I will admit I use the " grow stronger " quote but I would never say lose weight and this issue can get really bad once they hit tweens. Think it maybe with a few gymnasts I've had. Again, I would not even consider your daughter chubby. I could take a guess at her BW, but it doesn't matter as I am of the opinion she is understrong, not overweight. Pffft.

I'm only guessing at the calorie, carb, and protein count but I'd say eat more. Having said that, I have seen how hard it is to get some girls to eat like the hungry boys in the gym. Last season, I had to deal with these issues with my boys and it annoyed me to no end. Hopefully she gets a snack if she is working out 4 hours. I'd pump some food into her immediately after workout ASAP within 1 hour or less.

Egg whites...pffft. Eat the entire egg as she is missing lots of good stuff though your nutritionist is thinking too much fat in the whole egg or cholesterol. I would recommend at a minimum to get as close to 1 gram of protein per pound for a competitive gymnast, especially doing that much activity. At the very least 1.5g per 2.2 pounds ( kilo ).

Most competitive gymnasts are generally in the upper echelon of fitness testing in schools.

Coach Blair · Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1492 Location: Bay area/Sacto

As to what I would do with her? There would be a lot of conditioning. During the fall season, they may back off on conditioning to maintenance only so I wouldn't be surprised if her strength drops over the course of the season. I'd probably assign conditioning at home but nowadays, kids never seem to have any time at home, especially if they are at gym all day.

We often even had our L4's working L5 routines and skills, just in case they got them by the last month of the season so I really disliked backing down on conditioning during competition season.

Sounds like your gym has gotten too competition crazy. Sometimes it's a matter of fiscality which I think is just silly in the compulsory levels, but that's where the most money to be made is as for competitive gymnastics ( gotta keep the numbers up because they go down and down as they get to or don't get to L6 ). It's also where there is the most gym hopping.

AussieGirl · Joined: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 207

Your daughter does not need to lose weight, she has a beautiful body, again I would be very, very concerned with coaches who are making comments like this. If she lost 10 pounds she would look unhealthy and probably be unhealthy. It also seems exsessive that she is in the gym 20 hours a week at level 4.

gymdad08 · Joined: 04 Sep 2008 Posts: 5

gymdad08 · Joined: 04 Sep 2008 Posts: 5

Coach Blair · Joined: 09 Jan 2003 Posts: 1492 Location: Bay area/Sacto

Losing 5 pounds of weight is nothing when you're definitely lacking upper body strength.

I'm glad I was correct on the nutrition. I have a hard time approaching parents about that. Then again, I ate like a sumo as a child but I was pretty active besides a good amount of video games and bookish habits. Her nutritionist is definitely in the right, but I haven't dealt with many. From what I've seen it was too much of the typical USDA food diet. Peh-peh.

If she is still struggling with a pullover, getting the support part of the kip will be difficult. One girl I recall who had off and on kips for 2-3 years and still is a compulsory tended to have these issues mainly due to lack of upper body strength ( struggled with pullovers, ok on rope ) and the fact I didn't think she ate enough and took after her sisters in gymnastics ( very good dance but weak in the upper body ).

I take it she doesn't eat her eggs scrambled. Oh, well.

I still wouldn't call her out of shape but I would call her understrong. She seems to have nice tumbling with good shapes but a little weak on the back extension roll ( again upper body strength ). Kind of a dainty runner, but that's neither here nor there.

TipGuy · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:33 pm Post subject:

Keep in mind volume of training does not lead to strength. If much of those 20 hrs/week is conditioning then it's likely catabolic, particlularly on a caloric restricted diet. She needs to eat, and eat well. Yes, as gymnasts we need to avoid excess weight gain, but we need to eat to fuel performance. I ate 6500 cals/day in college. (large male gymnast, but still the point). Gymnasts need a high protein diet. They need to train to focus on strength gain and reduction of strength deficit.
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